I had a thought today*. Christians often treat porn as wrong. Just wrong. Do we think about why it is wrong?Perhaps. Usually it’s the old ‘it’s outside of God’s plan’ answer, which incidently, isn’t really telling us anything, because it just begs the question, how, and why is it outside of his plan?. But often it’s dismissed as wrong and judged as such without really much thought.
My thought for the day is this. Porn is deceptive. It portrays women (and men too, but I’m a hetrosexual guy, so I don’t think about other kinds of porn) in ways that imply sexuality, which promote the idea that women are objects who exist to please men**. This is incorrect - If that was how it is, guys wouldn’t need porn, they’d have women. So, when a guy looks at porn, he’s decieving himself. He’s in a fantasy world, looking at these pictures of women, and imagining how girls are all over him. Ironically, if women knew what was going on, chances are they’d look at him with a mixture of disgust of pity. By delluding himself, he’s actually putting himself that pushes him into a position that what he’s after is harder to get. Wake up man! Lifes not like that. Girls aren’t all over you, you’re delluding yourself. Leave the fantasy behind, be a real man, and impress someone in real life. And then marry them, and then you shouldn’t need porn! Yus!
Ok, so that’s quite short, and a little ranty (and it’s a little late), but hopefully you get the idea. Porn is intrinsically connected to a fantasy, and no-one really likes the idea that they’re decieving themselves. Maybe. What do you think?
* I had the thought as I walked along a street and noticed some advertising, which included a semi-naked lady, which prompted my thinking. Just so you don’t start to wonder…
** Interestingly, as I typed this, I left out the ‘n’. Freudian slip anyone?
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February 23, 2009 at 11:19 am
Matt
Okay, I’m going to disagree a little here, I think. Albeit making things up as I go.
First, I suspect that “…chances are [women would] look at him with a mixture of disgust or pity…” is, well, a rather broad generalisation. I can see that it would be true in many cases; I also suggest that maybe a lot of guys would respond in the same way, whether hypocritically or not. Is it possible you’re just projecting your own feelings? Porn is hugely overloaded with social stigma and shame, which makes it hard to evaluate on its own terms.
Second, porn is as common, I would expect, within marriage as without. If there’s a gap between the male sex drive and the female sex drive, is it wrong for that gap to be filled with something else? (Assuming honesty and openness and all that.) The whole “once you get married your sex drive will be satisfied and you won’t need/want porn any more” seems a pretty big myth from everything I’ve heard.
Still, I’d agree that it can be a pretty destructive form of escapism – but I’d say that’s only one possible ‘use’ of porn. Anything can be bad if it’s misused, although I don’t know if the inverse is true. (Porn as sexual education could arguably be helpful, verisimilitude notwithstanding. And I’ve read good things about it as spice for a cooling marriage.)
February 23, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Nato
Yeah, those two objections did occur to me, but it was late
Maybe I could refine the argument, and say that porn-escapism/delusion is bad. This perspective doesn’t provide an argument against porn used for non-escapist/delusional purposes (say in marriage), but you could argue that it is dangerous, as it’s likely to develop as such. I have heard that violent crime against women is correlated with porn use (this isn’t stats off the internet, this is a friend who did clinical psyc telling me), which would fit in with the perspective - if someone is deluded into thinking women are there to serve him, he’s a lot less likely to treat women with respect. I haven’t viewed the actual studies, so not sure. There is the counter argument that it’s only the extremes that are bad, and that in moderation is might be ok?
Anyway, the refinement makes it easier to address your disagreement about women - women ought to look at someone caught in such an escapism with pity because they’re trapped in a destructive cycle.
The marriage thing, I dunno. I will defer to people who know more than me
February 26, 2009 at 9:17 am
Matt
Okay, sure. I don’t see how that’s (in the general) different to any other form of escapism which bleeds into reality. eg:
* Porn => unrealistic expectations (”woman are like that”, “women are there to please me.”)
* Romantic Comedies => unrealistic expectations (”I’ll just luck into a relationship that perfect”, “There is one magically special person out there for me.”)
* Hero’s Journeys => unrealistic expectations (”I can be that awesome”, “Life will give me those opportunities.”)
Am I wrong?
February 26, 2009 at 9:46 am
Nato
In general yes, but porn also has an arousing effect, and taps into one of the fundamental human drives, and so has a very powerful reinforcing effect. You don’t get this basic level reinforcement with romantic comedies and hero journeys. I haven’t heard of a romantic comedy or hero journey addiction, but I have heard of sex addiction. So porn is escapism combined with a powerful reinforcement, which makes it more dangerous.
February 26, 2009 at 9:59 am
Matt
Okay, that’s fair. Although I’d argue that rom-coms are not all *that* far removed; maybe not so much for guys, but I have heard romance books and movies referred to as “emotion-porn.” (See also: Mills and Boon.)
But yes, good call on the tapping into deeper drives. That does add much danger.
February 27, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Christina
Yup, Mills and Boon books are considered female porn (if I remember 2nd year Psych correctly). They’re not visual (which works more for guys), but they are emotional (which works more for girls). And apparently romantic comedies do have a negative effect on relationships:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4843305a19716.html
February 27, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Ingrid
Porn is like tim tams - hard to have in moderation. It’s easier to have no tim tams than just one. Tim tams and porn are a very slippery slope! … however, i still choose to eat tim tams, you can read into that any way you like
March 2, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Christina
He he he thanks Ingrid - now when I see Tim tams I’m going to think porn
March 3, 2009 at 11:56 am
Fraser
Their TV ads used to make that association pretty blatantly.
April 20, 2009 at 11:24 am
KT
Ok, a few things: personally I don’t have a problem with guys ‘using’ porn (what is the right verb there? ‘consuming’ sounds wrong lol). Seems to me that rigorous honesty within a relationship ought to be able to deal with any issues that might arise. “How do you feel about me getting off on porn some days?” “Well, I guess I don’t mind in theory, but it does kind of make me worry about whether I measure up.” “Ok. Allow me to explain how you do in fact ‘measure up’, and beyond, and how it’s not really like that in my mind anyway.” etc. Assuming both parties are prepared to alter their behaviour if it’s really damaging to the other. But it does seem to me that women objecting to porn is a knee-jerk reaction that, when rationally examined, may well be surmountable, if a real effort is made to understand.
I actually think…okay, how to explain this without being lynched? I think men shouldn’t be made to feel so guilty about seeing women as sexual objects. As if the (stereotypical) female perspective, of it being ‘all about the relationship’, were somehow the only right perspective. Clearly both are needed, and if women get to squish men into their desired shape by making them learn about emotional intimacy etc, and are allowed to read endless books about how to do it better, and are considered virtuous for doing so… well, you get the idea.
Obviously if a man sees his partner as *only* a sexual object *all the time* that’s a problem, because of course she is more than that. But it’s also a Large problem if a man is made to feel guilty about his desire for his partner *while having sexy times*. Which I believe happens, e.g. in some Christian marriages. He gets loaded up with all this stuff about how he’s not supposed to feel lust, and how he has to see her as a whole person and remain emotionally in-touch, while his body is pulling him in the opposite direction. I think that this is wrong and damaging. In the right context, he should be free to go crazy.
In reality, a woman wants to be desired. She wants him to go crazy for her (even if she doesn’t know that’s what she wants). Ok, I shouldn’t generalise; I speak for myself. And I don’t think that’s such a bad thing either, or something for me to feel guilty about. Bringing things like this out of the realms of ‘naughty little secret’ and into the realms of ‘fact about myself that I should learn to work with rather than be in denial about’ is very liberating. Or has been for me.
There’s a lot more I could say on this subject, but that’s probably enough since I’m 2 months late joining the discussion.
April 20, 2009 at 11:52 am
Nato
Interesting, you bring up good points. I’d like to make a bit of a distinction. There is the issue whether a man should be allowed to lust after his partner, and then there is the issue whether a man should be allowed to lust after another partner. It ought to be well accepted that a man should be allowed to lust after his partner, but, in the case of porn, it could be argued that the man is not lusting after his partner, and in a sense being unfaithful.
Of course, as you point out, it wouldn’t be as bad if the partner were aware, and accepting of it. On the other hand, wouldn’t an empathetic and rational individual find it hard to object to anything that’s not damaging to either party?
April 21, 2009 at 3:53 pm
KT
True, I think I got on a bit of a tangent. Also maybe I was assuming that if a man ‘objectifies’ women, the only effect this will have on the actual world is in actual relationships he has with women. Which is probably not the case.